Curse

Seef II · Oct 06, 2006, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Part 1: posted the week after the Factions Preview Event. Link

So, it's been ~6 months since Factions was released, and if we consider what's happened to warriors since then, the answer is "not a whole lot." Shock has definitely dominated Gale on a warrior now, we've seen a slow but steady rise in sword's popularity on pressure, and King Eviscerate has yet to be dethroned. As concluded in the previous thread, hammer is a solid choice, coming out in practice a lot better than it looks on paper. With Nightfall fast approaching, well, the hammer isn't getting any significant boost.

It's just like Factions: high-cost skills, DPS- and PvE-oriented skills, and stupidly conditional skills just don't cut it over the Core/Prophecies set, which has a nice mix of knockdowns, damage, and scare factor. Fierce Blow appears to be the only Factions hammer skill getting any significant play time. The rest are, well, junk for most PvP. What does Nightfall bring? Hammer Mastery is only getting three new skills. Let's take a look at their beta form:
Attribute levels are given from 0..15.

Oogara Smash
5 e, 20 s recharge
If Oogara Smash hits, you strike for +5..20 damage and gain 2 strikes of adrenaline.

Remarks: On a already fairly energy-intensive bar with Frenzy, Crushing Blow, perhaps Bull's Strike and Sprint, or even Death's Charge or Irresistible Blow this one pretty much needs a buff to be considered seriously. The extra damage is standard fare, which is pretty good if you crit on a squishy, but unimpressive.
Other adrenal gain skills outshine this one - To The Limit can nab you up to 4~5 adrenaline, any IAS increases your gain, etc. It seems hard to want to pay the 5 energy for Oogara Smash.
Anet seems to be fearing a good, fast way for hammers to build adrenaline in a single attack. This is a (but ultimately ineffective) step in the right direction, compared to skills like Crude Swing at least.

Overbearing Smash
6 adrenaline
If Overbearing Smash hits, you strike for +5..20 damage. Overbearing Smash cannot be blocked or evaded if target foe is suffering from Weakness.

Remarks: Reliance on Weakness rears its head again. At 6 adrenaline, I would prefer the extra 21 damage on Fierce Blow (after Devastating Hammer) or pony up energy instead for Irresistible Blow, which cycles faster and can even KD on a block. Damage, again, is standard +21. Not bad, but not spectacular. If this is used against a Distortion guy and you get Crushing in after Devastating, this may very well be the finishing blow, though.

Magehunter's Smash [e]
5 adrenaline
If Magehunter's Smash hits an enchanted foe, that foe is knocked down.

Remarks: For some reason, I'm wanting to compare this to Warmonger's Weapon, which isn't elite but has a different effect that's still pretty devastating to casters. At 5 adrenaline, it's only one more strike than Counter Blow, which also covers a pretty specific action on the target's part. Generally, conditional skills like these - especially elite ones like Ineptitude - which depend on actions you can't easily force or control are looked over. Magehunter's Smash is also elite, which means that you are limited to 3 knockdowns (Shock/Gale/Bull's Strike, if you bring it --> Magehunter's, if enchanted --> Hammer Bash) of which two are conditional.
The 5a cost is reasonable if the skill weren't elite, especially considering it'll knock down anyone that is enchanted, but without any extra damage, I'll gladly suck it up, hit twice more for Devastating Hammer, and take advantage of Fierce Blow.

It's interesting to note that the Factions hammer skills haven't really been touched much at all since release. Factions as a whole didn't do a whole lot for PvP warriors (I still see more Final Thrust than Dragon Slash, and Quivering Blade is pretty much PvE-only) and Nightfall doesn't seem to promise much either. If we look back on Prophecies/Core, most of the good warrior "money" skills are there: Sever-Gash-Final, Devastating-Crushing, Prot and Bull's Strike.

Factions attempted to bring on a dps sort of game, with cheap spammables like Images of Remorse, Ritual Lord, Whirling Axe, Enraged Smash, and Poisonous Bite. I don't know where Nightfall is headed. The power creep in Nightfall is pretty much leaving warriors behind - maybe rightly so, considering they are the kings of damage right now and other classes could use a buff (assassins and dervishes, namely). If Factions tried to expand the tool box that warriors could draw from, it didn't do very well from a PvP perspective.

So why didn't the skills get buffed? This is only a question Izzy can answer, and theories abound. Right now, for instance, Staggering Blow is looking pretty sad:

Staggering Blow
6 adrenaline
If Staggering Blow hits, target foe suffers from Weakness for 5..20 seconds.

Remarks: Sever Artery at 4 adrenaline; Dismember at 5 adrenaline. Last I checked, Weakness is hardly a priority condition (though irritating, it's nowhere near as bad as Crippled for instance). Having it cost more adrenaline than the axe and sword counterparts - while on a slower weapon - is a slap in the face. For one more strike, you can grab a KD and the same Weakness duration with Devastating Hammer, or deal a pile of damage with Forceful Blow, which has its own problems.
I just updated the page on GuildWiki today as I was typing this post, and haven't seen this skill run anywhere except on the NPC warriors in Fort Aspenwood. With so many other hammer skills depending on Weakness, starting the chain off with a skill so bad isn't really appetizing.

I'm not really arguing that hammer needs a kick in the pants to be competitive. It already is. Dervish is coming out, however, with a spammable Deep Wound and high weapon damage. Axe is getting Destructive Chop, which looks to be pretty darn scary even with its drawbacks. (8 adrenaline for hammer-level damage and a Deep Wound? Yeah.) Sword isn't getting much, but they were the only weapon that really won out in Factions, so it kind of evens out. But hammer isn't getting anything good from either new chapter. One could run Devastating Hammer with Mighty Blow and only lose out on 5 damage (but come out +16 if the target isn't Weakened). And hence to the other part that I'm not really liking: damage.

Hammer damage is high enough. I don't like getting autocritted for ~75 damage, and skill criticals in the low-100s are downright brutal if the warrior gets a couple in a row. But the +dmg from skills are kind of sad for hammer. Compared to say, Dervish or Assassin, anyway. What good is a Mighty Blow that hits for 124 when an Executioner's Strike pops someone for 112 (and does it faster)? With damage buffs like orders and Judge's Insight, even sword can put out some ridiculous numbers - I've seen 102 on Gash, ~105 on Prot Strike - hammer wouldn't doing a whole lot more (probably 130-140).

I've heard of the beta imbalances when Strength had double its current effect, but considering what axe and even sword (and soon to be Dervishes - an assassin spike compares favorably to an adrenal spike) can dish out now, and charge up faster, hammer may like, but not need, a buff on the attack skills. Mighty Blow at 6..35 was a good start, but would putting it to the same 10..40 as Executioner's Strike (and consequently buffing Fierce to +1..21 and +2..27 or so) really create an imbalance?

I probably sound rather disjointed in this post, and I apologize for the long read. Again, I emphasize that warriors as a whole are a strong, if not the strongest profession in Guild Wars and that the hammer as a weapon is good (even thumpers are still seen after IB's nerf). But how can we or Anet improve it, considering the entire line except ~5 skills is junk, even in PvE?

Greedy Gus · Oct 06, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Yup, factions gave hammer wars fierce, nightfall gives them nothing.

Teh Mighty Warrior · Oct 06, 2006, 02:31 AM // 02:31

I'm waiting for the unconditional kd hammer elite, such as:

Unconditional Knockdown Hammer Elite That Would Be Of Some Use
8 Adrenaline
Target foe takes 25...41 damage and is knocked down.

Dragannia · Oct 06, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Heard of Devastating Hammer? Although it doesn't have a +damage the Weakness leads to a +20ish damage from Fierce Blow.

Backbreaker is also good.

LightningHell · Oct 06, 2006, 04:43 AM // 04:43

I'm pretty sure all the Prophecies hammer elites are unconditional (Backbreaker, Devastating Hammer, Earth Shaker)...

-Loki- · Oct 06, 2006, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Mighty Warrior

I'm waiting for the unconditional kd hammer elite, such as:

Unconditional Knockdown Hammer Elite That Would Be Of Some Use
8 Adrenaline
Target foe takes 25...41 damage and is knocked down.

So basically a cheap backbreaker without a 4 second duration?

Poison Ivy · Oct 06, 2006, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Hammers are stuck in a hell of it's own making actually, since it relies on knockdown, but chaining too many knockdowns at once leaving the enemy completely useless while dealing high damage will make hammers way too overpowered in PvP, for example:

Devastating (knockdown), Forceful Blow, (Some other knockdown without loosing AD), Mighty blow (or something), Heavy Blow, Crushing.

At this point the enemy is already dead, after being chained KDed 3 times, overpowered? Hell yeah. Sure shock is there, but for some unknock reason not many people is using that sort of chain knockdown.

So at this point, Anet can only buff certain Hammer skills' damage, add some this and that. If they make 1 unconditional knockdown that's non elite, than it's pretty much a birth of a gimmick.

Patrograd · Oct 06, 2006, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Mighty Warrior

I'm waiting for the unconditional kd hammer elite, such as:

Unconditional Knockdown Hammer Elite That Would Be Of Some Use
8 Adrenaline
Target foe takes 25...41 damage and is knocked down.

Like this?

Quote:

Elite Skill. Lose all Adrenaline. All of your other non-attack skills are disabled for 10...6 seconds. Target touched foe is knocked down and takes 15...63 damage

Seef II · Oct 06, 2006, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

So at this point, Anet can only buff certain Hammer skills' damage, add some this and that. If they make 1 unconditional knockdown that's non elite, than it's pretty much a birth of a gimmick.

Hammer Bash is not elite, and an unconditional knockdown. Even with the lose all adrenaline clause, it's not a bad skill in the hammer line, if only because it
1) is unconditional, unlike about half the line
2) knocks down, the main selling point in hammers.

Basically, we've got the same sort of bind assassins are in. They have no way to cause deep wound without Twisting Fangs, so that skill is in 99% of assassin builds. Hammer has no way of deep wounding without a knockdown, then hitting with Crushing Blow. You can argue that swords require Bleeding, but that condition actually means something in the whole scheme of team dps and pressure, and is easier to apply: 4 adrenaline versus a minimum of 6 or a heavy investment in energy for a KD. As is oft-said, a warrior that can't Deep Wound is a warrior that really isn't worth running at all.

Crushing Blow's a fine skill. But it's Prophecies only. Pretty unacceptable considering Sever-Gash are Core and axe at least has Dismember (and soon Destructive Chop). We need alternatives.

Shadowfox1125 · Oct 06, 2006, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Patrograd's talking about Shove, not Hammer Bash.

Zui · Oct 06, 2006, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

Crushing Blow's a fine skill. But it's Prophecies only. Pretty unacceptable considering Sever-Gash are Core and axe at least has Dismember (and soon Destructive Chop). We need alternatives.

ANET won't give us them. You'd think they'd make essential skills for people like Eviscerate, Sever Artery, Gash, Crushing Blow, core skills... But, then you think they want everyone to buy two chapters...

-Loki- · Oct 06, 2006, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poison Ivy

Hammers are stuck in a hell of it's own making actually, since it relies on knockdown, but chaining too many knockdowns at once leaving the enemy completely useless while dealing high damage will make hammers way too overpowered in PvP, for example:

Devastating (knockdown), Forceful Blow, (Some other knockdown without loosing AD), Mighty blow (or something), Heavy Blow, Crushing.

At this point the enemy is already dead, after being chained KDed 3 times, overpowered? Hell yeah. Sure shock is there, but for some unknock reason not many people is using that sort of chain knockdown.

Why do you have 5 hammer attacks? Generally, you'll have 3. A KD, Crushing and a followup. Leaves you 5 slots to play with and has plenty of killing power.

Zui · Oct 06, 2006, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Why do you have 5 hammer attacks? Generally, you'll have 3. A KD, Crushing and a followup. Leaves you 5 slots to play with and has plenty of killing power.

Because a 5.83s combo under Frenzy, or an 8.75s combo without Frenzy is godly? I mean, it takes like 4 seconds to see someone is taking damage and select them, and another 1.5 to press a button on your keyboard and use Orison of Healing! Am I right?

/end sarcasam, I couldn't resist

LightningHell · Oct 06, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Because a 5.83s combo under Frenzy, or an 8.75s combo without Frenzy is godly? I mean, it takes like 4 seconds to see someone is taking damage and select them, and another 1.5 to press a button on your keyboard and use Orison of Healing! Am I right?

/end sarcasam, I couldn't resist

No, it takes me 10 seconds to realize that person is dropping, click Reversal of Fortune, and realize he's been dead for 6 seconds already.

Anyway, I must agree, that chain is wayyyyy too long. I'd stick to something like Devastating, Crushing, Irresistable (or, because I just love it, Prot Strike).

Patrograd · Oct 06, 2006, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowfox1125

Patrograd's talking about Shove, not Hammer Bash.

correct

The weakness to shove is that you cant use it with frenzy unless you want to get spiked (loss of cancel stance ftl), so this means you have to use the pretty "meh" tigers stance as your IAS, which sucks a bit tbh. The loss of adrenaline is largely inconsequential, it is the same as hammer bash in that regard.

But nightfall promises to address that with Burst of Aggression anyways, suddenly making burst-shove-crushing look pretty interesting to me. Energy might be tight, but no more so than usual on a hammer imo

The strength of shove is that it doesnt require adrenaline to get your KD, you can KD through most wards, blinds, aegis, guardian whatever, only stability will screw you over. As long as your monks clean you as hit shove it will really pretty strong in Nightfall imo

neoflame · Oct 06, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

The problem with Shove is that it sucks ass. I'm pretty sure I can build 7a for Devastating Hammer faster than 20 seconds, and be able to use Frenzy, and be able to play a better followup because I have both adrenaline and more energy, compared to Shove.

Patrograd · Oct 07, 2006, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by neoflame

The problem with Shove is that it sucks ass. I'm pretty sure I can build 7a for Devastating Hammer faster than 20 seconds, and be able to use Frenzy, and be able to play a better followup because I have both adrenaline and more energy, compared to Shove.

Well, in a pressure build dev-crushing-fierce is clearly a much stronger combination, but there are some builds where the main function of the hammer is to apply a deep wound on a spike while putting a KD onto the target. In a meta where ward camping, aegis chains and dual blinds are not uncommon, having that guaranteed KD on the spike is really nice, where dev would just miss. Yes, the recharge is an issue, but usually you would put bash on the same bar.

The other thing about shove in a caster assisted spike is that it allows you to spike on first contact which will often completely surprise teams who see two warriors and think they have 10-15 seconds before they need to deal with a spike.

So, in my opinion, it depends on what you want your hammer to do. If you want him to pressure then shove is beyond doubt a poor skill. If you want him just to give you a deep wound in a spike then it can be very strong and is used by two or three of the top 20 or so sides that run caster assisted adrenal spikes usually on a w/a with deaths charge

Teh Mighty Warrior · Oct 08, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Mighty Warrior

I'm waiting for the unconditional kd hammer elite, such as:

Unconditional Knockdown Hammer Elite That Would Be Of Some Use
8 Adrenaline
Target foe takes 25...41 damage and is knocked down.

My fault, I meant +25...41 damage, not 25...41. This would be quite useful for spikes. This elite+crushing+mighty blow could get some use.

Xasew · Oct 09, 2006, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Mighty Warrior

My fault, I meant +25...41 damage, not 25...41. This would be quite useful for spikes. This elite+crushing+mighty blow could get some use.

But that would be like Devastating-Crushing-Fierce, except that this spike has like 35 more damage. Don't you think that's quite a big difference for just 1 adrenaline? If the damage was like +1...25 (1-12) it would be better balanced.

Nightwish · Oct 09, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xasew

But that would be like Devastating-Crushing-Fierce, except that this spike has like 35 more damage. Don't you think that's quite a big difference for just 1 adrenaline? If the damage was like +1...25 (1-12) it would be better balanced.

Devastating deals weakness condition while the suggested elite does not (in exchange for more dmg at 1 adrenal higher cost).

Juggernaut HeadSmash
9 adrenaline
Target foe is knocked down and suffers from daze for 1...6s.

Bodyslam of the Ox
4 adrenaline
If target foe is not adjacent to any ally, target is knocked down.